Over the past month, Spartanburg County and surrounding areas have turned out to receive the flu shot at the Spartanburg County Health Department. The flu clinic was held Tuesdays and Thursdays from 8:30am until 4pm during the month of October and has been extended to appointment visits only during the month of November until supply becomes limited. Working for the Health Department, I hear from several clients that the cost of the general flu shot has risen to unbelievable prices or that their current doctor’s office has run out of the shot. The general flu shot is no charge to those under the age of 18 or individuals with Medicaid or Medicare insurance at DHEC. Any individual with private insurance or no insurance must pay $25. Anyone interested in taking the shot, can call (864) 596-2227 to schedule an appointment.
H1N1
The Spartanburg County Health Department will hold a free walk-in H1N1 clinic for the general public on Wednesday, November 11, Saturday, November 21, Saturday, December 5, Saturday, December 12, and Saturday, December 19. This shot if free to the general public and administered between 8:30 a.m. and 4:00 pm on these days. The CDC recommended groups receive the H1N1 vaccine include:
- All children from 6 months to 17 years old.
- Household contact and caregivers for babies younger than 6 months of age.
- Pregnant women.
- Young adults 18 to 24 years of age.
- People 25 through 64 years of age who have health conditions that put them at higher risk of medical complications from flu.
Let’s work together to keep ourselves and our children healthy through winter season!
Petre'se Kennedy
Take your vitamins and practice good hygiene. Be careful what you inject in your body.
Anti-vaccination? Please say I’m barking up the wrong tree on that. I could definitely do without having to argue against that anti-science garbage on here.
I don’t think vaccinations should be the goto front-line defense in fighting infection. Our immune systems work perfectly well on their own. Many people that get the flu-shot experience flu-like symptoms.
I’ve seen no evidence the current flu strain is especially deadly compared to any other seasonal flu. There is a lot of fear I see perpetrated in regards to this virus.
If you want to get the shot at least be informed on what is in them. I for one am not convinced that all the adjuvants they use to ‘cut’ the vaccine have been proven safe.
Do your own research and make up your own mind. I would hope this would be a forum for respectful intelligent debate but maybe I should go somewhere else.
No disrespect intended. The debate is normally intelligent, and respectful when deserved. Stick around, you’ll have some fun I’m sure.
As for your claims about our immune systems doing just fine on their own, I guess we should’ve just let our immune systems take care of polio, measles, mumps, rubella, small pox, rabies, typhoid, yellow fever…surely you get my point. I mean those useless vaccines only practically eliminated those diseases. We could’ve let our immune systems do the same thing right?
Also, the flu shot has been shown to be quite effective, particularly the H1N1 vaccine.
From the CDC’s site:”The first and most important step to prevent the flu is to get vaccinated. Vaccination stimulates an immune response using a killed or weakened virus that uses the body’s own defense mechanisms to prevent infection.”
You can read the rest here: http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/public/vaccination_qa_pub.htm
Considering the anti-vaccination crowd’s absolutely ridiculous claims about the safety of vaccines, I think it’s fair to ask you to back up your claims about how the flu vaccine is supposedly unsafe. Where is your scientific, peer-reviewed evidence to support your claim?
I only ask because there’s a literal mountain on the other side of this argument, and I think it’s only fair that the person making extraordinary claims be the one to present the extraordinary evidence.
I would advise everyone to research this as well, but make sure to pay attention to the source. It’s important to understand that many in the anti-vaccination movement are spreading a lot of misinformation regarding safety and effectiveness. Always check the credentials of your source. Be skeptical of extraordinary claims.
Snopes, for example, has an excellent list of actual sources for H1N1 info: http://www.snopes.com/medical/swineflu/info.asp
It sounds like you put a lot of trust in the federal government. The safety trials for the vaccines were 6 week expedited studies pursuant to the World Health Organization declaring a level 5 pandemic.
The vaccine manufacturers want to produce as many doses as possible. However it takes too much virus RNA to achieve the desired immune response and so they develop chemical adjuvants that multiply the effects. There are also preservatives and foreign rna and dna from the cell cultures they use to grow the viruses. Another thing to note is that injecting something is very different than digesting it (pass through digestive tract). Unfortunately not all of the ingredients are always listed on the vaccine inserts so it can be difficult to ascertain the precise chemicals used without consulting the patents filed by the individual drug companies.
6 weeks is not long enough to diagnose chronic autoimmune diseases, so I prefer not to take the chance.
In the meantime there are natural things we can do to boost our immunity. Optimal levels of Vitamin C (which is water-soluble so hard to take too much of) and Vitamin D (the sunshine-vitamin, which is why flu is less prevalent in the summer). Washing your hands, being careful of what you touch, and eliminating risk factors such as smoking and obesity are things we can all do to give ourselves the best chance of staying healthy throughout the year.
You speak out of both sides of your mouth when you say no disrespect intended and then tweet that I am a nut.
Links? Evidence? Peer-reviewed research? Nah! We don’t need that stuff.
But I mean it with the utmost respect. You are a nut!
What part don’t you believe? Everything I’ve said is a fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunologic_adjuvant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_d#Role_in_immunomodulation
http://www.healthnews.com/alerts-outbreaks/swine-flu-h1n1-reaches-level-6-pandemic-3279.html
(sorry I was mistaken it was level 6 not level 5)
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/frequently_asked_questions/levels_pandemic_alert/en/
“WHO is working closely with manufacturers to expedite the development of a safe and effective vaccine …”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/dec/11/medicalresearch.health
“Obesity can weaken the body’s immune system and reduce its ability to fight off infections, according to scientists.”
I’m sure we can all agree smoking is bad. Then again I suspect that no level of ‘proof’ will ever be sufficient to satisfy your rigorous needs.
Links and Evidence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunologic_adjuvant
“Aluminum adjuvants have caused motor neuron death in mice and oil-water suspensions have been reported to increase the risk of autoimmune disease in mice. Squalene has caused rheumatoid arthritis in rats already prone to arthritis.”
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/
frequently_asked_questions/levels_pandemic_alert/en/
“WHO is working closely with manufacturers to expedite the development of a safe and effective vaccine”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Role_in_immunomodulation
Thanks Christopher –
I feel your frustration.
I’ve traveled to a handful of medical and scientific conferences over the past year on infectious diseases, where I’m use to seeing studies presented based on sound scientific principles (often using the gold standard — double blind placebo control), and where these studies are subject to peer review, the anti-vaccine movement is (to say the least, without expletives) frustrating. Their use of anecdotal and selective biased studies to prove a point is not just annoying, but a public health menace.
(If someone wants to take Vitamin C (or Air Born) on their on, believing that it prevents colds (unfounded), then fine, nobody gets hurt).
But when a population is placed at risk, such as the millions die in South Africa due to the similar AIDS denialist movement, then we have a problem.
Hey, but we live in a society where the majority doesn’t believe in evolution, so what’s science got to do with it?
Ok, so please show me double blind placebo controlled studies showing the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.
The numbers so often cited are derived from statistical studies that look at total-mortality rates over two self-selected groups. http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=af55d5db-73da-49d8-96e9-5dd6fc75a660 has some info on this. Most of the studies they do are for whether you need one shot or two.
There is no vaccine for AIDS, and so this and the slight about evolution are straw men. However there were those hepatitis B vaccine trials they did on gay men in New York in the late 70s through early 80s.
I was actually at the conference (and attended the meeting) where that study was presented. There was a rigorous debate on it’s merits. The final verdict, even among the study presenters, was that the elderly should still receive a flu vaccine.
And I was not talking about not having the AIDS Vaccine per se, but a similar denialist movement which has it’s own agenda. (It is interesting that the Thai HIV vaccine results which were announced a month, were not peer reviewed, and despite the initial hope, has now been refuted by the larger scientific community).
Even among the best intentioned scientist, there can be bias.
On another point, I find it interesting in determining risk analysis, people react in wildly disproportional ways. They worry about the miniscule (one in a million risk) of an adverse reaction to a vaccine, yet they do not wear seat belts, continue to smoke, don’t exercise, and eat high-fat processed sugar laden diets.
Go figure.
I also wanted to say, that as someone who went to the above conference, attended the above session, and had talked extensively to the lead researcher about the above study, this was just one study among many. The lead researcher still supported vaccines, and felt that more studies needed to be done to reach a valid conclusion.
During the above conference, I spent about 30 hours in the press room. You must understand that many of the journalist who cover such conferences are just looking for the edge, something that will stand out as being interesting, while ignoring the more mundane studies. So if they see something out of the norm, that might peak their readers interest (or be controversial), such as the above study, it become more widely reported.
At the same conference, there were over 500 published papers, most not near as interesting or controversial, but of equal or better scientific merit. They were just too mundane and uncontroversial for wider distribution.
Again, people pick and choose what they want to believe according to their own bias.
Again show me a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study on the efficacy of the flu shot.
Kirk,
I agree. People do need to educate themselves as much as possible and make up their own mind. There is a LOT of info out there on this subject. The government isn’t the only source of scientific information. Anyhoo, I enjoyed reading your comments and found nothing nutty about them. I found them quite enlightening actually. So please don’t go elsewhere.
I completely agree with Tammy. While I choose to vaccinate my children for many diseases, we do not vaccinate for the flu. I think that Kirk has given his point of view in a comprehensive and repsectful manner and I thought his points were far from “nutty.”
Thanks, really appreciate it. I had more comments with ‘links and evidence’ but it doesn’t look like it’s been approved. As you said, there is a lot of information, everyone should stay informed. Weigh your own benefits and risks before any decision.
The high number of links in your reply and your recently joining the Spark set off the automatic SPAM filter, and I didn’t see it until I checked the filter earlier today. It was nothing against your view — it caught one of Sylvie’s posts as well — and as you can see it’s been posted above.
Thanks, I figured it out, was just a little confused at first after Mr George asked for links.
Regardless of whether you’re for or against the vaccinations, you bring up a good point, Kirk.
Even if you decide to get the vaccination, don’t forget the wonders of good old Vitamin C, B12, garlic, cranberry extract, unfiltered apple cider vinegar, and washing your hands THOROUGHLY (don’t forget to get under those fingernails) for a solid 30 seconds with lots of soap and warm water. Also, this time of year, I’m constantly slathering on Bath & Bodyworks’ Anti-Bacterial Hand Lotion- keeps you clean and doesn’t dry out your skin like most hand sanitizer.
A good old fashioned daily multi-vitamin and proper hygiene can go a long way. A good diet, exercise, and a good night’s sleep will take that much farther.
Don’t forget health basics in the midst of wonder drugs and media hype.
Real ACV is one of my favorite things in the world.
I know; the stuff is amazing! I just wish it were easier to find.
my hands are now addicted to that sanitizer stuff. As I work very closely with the public I don’t want to spread germs and have gone overboard lately with the sanitizer gels and the little wipe thingies. Of course that don’t prevent me from catching stuff from others….cough cough, hack hack. Don’t worry. probably another sinus infection.
Yes I’m sure this;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3xgV11ZSAg is just “Anti-Science” crap. I bet that believing that the Swine Flu vaccine of 70′s that killed more people than the swine flu itself, is just typical Anti-Science bull shit.
Yessir, you just a lapdog for the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah Daniel, is there no right-wing cause you won’t shill for?
Yes the government is always out to get you. Look out for those black helicopters, and always make sure to get your medical advice from conspiratorial libertarian kooks. God knows your doctor can’t be trusted. You never know when that evil Obama-government (Obeverment?) has gotten to yours.
I am hereby asking, no begging, Steve to give us an eyeroll feature on the Spark.
I think you mean NWO eyeroll creature feature.
If you love doctors so much, why don’t you marry them? ‘Cause that’s gay? Sometimes. Polygamy is illegal? Yeah.
I have security cameras and hours of video evidence of, aliens, black helicopters, cattle dismemberment, el chupacabra, the black eyed peas, 1995 and of course… BIGFOOT.
I mean, I really do. Come watch them. I also have videos of myself dancing and lip syncing Backstreet Boys, Coolio and Alice Cooper songs when I was a young one.
Oddly, out of that entire list the one that interests me the most is the one of you lip-syncing Backstreet Boys. I’m more inclined to believe in black helicopters than in that.
Also, 1995 did not exist. I don’t care what evidence you have. I was there, exactly where it was supposed to be, and I saw nothing. It’s just further evidence of your fringe lunatic status.
I’m trying to find a way of transferring my “music videos” from VHSC to an internet compatible format. Then, you will see.
However, you were right about 1995. As I recall it went something like;NAFTA, Cobain’s death and Tonya Harding, then 1996′s….wait, I don’t think ’96 happened either.
I get a flu shot because I am Asthmatic and it helps me prevent the chances of getting the flu, and in my line of work its pretty high.
My parents were of the mind that immunizations were bad so I didn’t get any as a child. Instead I got the mumps, my brothers got the measles and I had a non-break out version, I and two other siblings all that Whooping cough, otherwise known as pertussis, the chicken pox and the Hong Kong flu.
Now I get bronchitis at least once a year, sinus infections at least twice, have had strep 5 times and counting, severe allergies and asthma. I wonder, could have an ounce of prevention way back could have kept my immune system and my lungs healthy??
Oh by the way your u-tube link is broken. And for record the deadliest flu outbreaks occurred BEFORE immunizations against diseases. The last was in 1918. It estimated
to have killed 50 million people. Since then death by influenza has been greatly reduced.
interesting little link about the flu and percentages.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ops/hsc-scen-3_flu-pandemic-deaths.htm
There is some evidence the mortality of the 1918 outbreak was exacerbated by the overuse of aspirin, which was still new to most people and heavily marketed by Bayer. Among other things this can cause fluid buildup in the lungs (pulmonary edema) and vitamin C deficiency.
yeah I read that aspirin may have has a little influence, but I seriously doubt it made that big an impact. Especially as quick as the Spanish Flu killed. One just doesn’t get deficient in vitamin C over night. That nasty little strain killed more people then who died in WW1.
Yes Aspirin was used to treat flu patients, and true it wasn’t a good form of treatment, but most of the millions who got the flu did’t get aspirin treatment. That was one terrifying flu strain wiping out entire villages, and devastating populations in several smaller nations. The reason it was so widespread amongst soldiers fighting in the trenches was because of malnutrition and close proximity to sick comrades, not aspirin.
Wiki has a great article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
It’s actually pretty easy to go vitamin C deficient rather quickly since it is water soluble and cannot be stored in fat. Humans, the other primates, fruit bats, and guinea pigs are practically the only life on the planet that doesn’t naturally produce vitamin C.
I know everyone loves studies so http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6811490 http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/606060
Quick question for Kirk, do you believe in ANY vaccinations at all, or are you just opposed to the flu/H1N1 vaccine?
Does that really matter? Most of your arguments seem to be based on the association fallacy. The topic is flu vaccine, so I’m not inclined to widen the scope of the debate.
It’s a simple yes or no question. Do you or don’t you support vaccinations in a larger sense?
I think it’s a pretty relevant question as far as establishing where you’re coming from in this debate.
I’m assuming by your refusal that you don’t believe in vaccinations of any kind. Am I correct in that assumption or not?
I’m not sure why that matters. I know plenty of well-educated folks who opt out of all vaccines for a variety of reasons. I can see their point and share many of their concerns although I may or may not have made the same decisions. Regardless, they’re getting along just fine. Just because people choose to not be vaccinated doesn’t make their concerns or their argument any less valid.
I would look at each shot individually.
I didn’t ask you did I Tammy?
The reason most people who don’t vaccinate their kids are doing just fine is because of herd immunity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
If EVERYONE all of the sudden opted out of our vaccinations, we’d all find out pretty quickly exactly what it was like in the good old days when polio, typhoid, measles, mumps, rubella, yellow fever, etc ran through huge populations unchecked.
I for one am glad our society has eliminated these illnesses to the point to where even when otherwise smart people do ignorant things, it still doesn’t harm us that much
Here’s hoping that ignorance doesn’t spread as fast now as polio did 70 years ago.
That’s a rather rude way to speak to a lady.
Chris,
I don’t care who you asked. I still answered. It doesn’t invalidate one’s opinion simply because they choose to not vaccinate.
“I don’t care who you asked. I still answered.”
That one never surprises me coming from you.
We will just have to agree to disagree I suppose. Refusal to vaccinate against those horrible diseases shows a serious lack of critical thinking and a total disdain for the danger presented to other people by your “choice”.
For example: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5708a3.htm
This “choice” is a decision based on faulty thinking, and is therefore VERY relevant to this discussion.
I can tell you this much. If I had a baby in day care, and he or she caught some disease like measles from some 4 year old who’s parents were too self-centered to vaccinate their kid, that parent would be wise to steer clear of me.
Chris-
Why is it a danger to others if your vaccines work so well? And no, herd immunity is not the answer. Herd immunity deals with the vaccinated protecting the unvaccinated. How can the unvaccinated harm the vaccinated if the vaccine works?
Glad you asked Kirk. Those who refuse to immunize can pass those diseases on to infants and children who haven’t yet received their vaccines.
Read that link I provided for an example where that very thing happened.
But thats ok, you’re going to get your kids immunized as early as possible, right?
By the way, thousands of antibodies are secreted in a mother’s breast milk, but who does that anymore.
Of course I would, and in fact I did with my daughter years ago, but that doesn’t help a person with a baby too YOUNG to have received the vaccine, as the link that you won’t comment on shows.
Explaining all this too you is very tiresome.
Technically I should say vaccinate since their are other ways to gain immunization.
Well like I said I didn’t want to get drawn into a discussion on the merits of every vaccine, but I think the important thing is for people to know they have choices on what shots and when. I could choose to vaccinate my kids according to the guidelines of another country (say Denmark), or give them the same shots I got in ’83 instead of the dozens more that are given today at earlier and earlier ages.
I’m going to get the swine flu and kill all of us in the process because this is a truly ridiculous conversation. On the left (Boy George) “If you don’t vaccinate you’re a burden to society” and “I’m a complete fascist!” and on the right (who the hell is that guy?) “Tinfoil hats tinfoil hats quick!!!!!”
I can watch people do this on CNN. Steve better fire up that camera quick because yawn.
I think I’ll just go back to http://www.azlyrics.com, type in Kanye West in the search box, read randomly picked songs and while laughing hysterically, I’ll ask myself over and over why anyone regards his embarrassing form of poetry as art.
Go Captain Kirk!!
We are not going to get the H1N1 vaccine. I do not trust the vaccine and the testing (or lack of) that went into it’s rush to markey. My family and I are using Vira-Block and masks…no forgien stuff in our bodies!
Joe –
You’re putting foreign crap in your body every time you eat.
Have you ever bothered to read the unpronounceable ingredients in the processed garbage we now call food?
It’s not about being for or against vaccines for me. It’s more about me being a responsible parent, citizen and individual. I’m not ‘against’ vaccines by any means…I’m just not going to put my kids up without weighing every option first. If that makes me nutty for questioning the government and their agencies…then I’m a damn crazy nutjob because I’ll question them every time.
Because this is the same government that says genetically modified foods, high fructose corn syrup, RBgH, Bisphenol A, et. al. is “okay” in humans regardless of the studies that find they cause cancer and such. They let that stuff slide because those industry lobbyists have an assload of money and power and so what if a few people get cancer??? So as someone who is already a bit of a sketptic I can’t help but wonder if there is an impact from the pharmaceutical companies on this hype.
It really sucks that there is SO much politics in our healthcare. It’s killing us in more ways than one.
Regardless, it’s a gamble either way. We can read 5000 studies for and against but everyone is different and at different stages in their health and will react differently depending on a existing factors at the time.
The problem with saying things like it’s bad to put “foreign substances” into your body is that it doesn’t hold up to scientific scrutiny.
“Aluminum adjuvants have caused motor neuron death in mice and oil-water suspensions have been reported to increase the risk of autoimmune disease in mice. Squalene has caused rheumatoid arthritis in rats already prone to arthritis.”
Now on the face of it, this seems like a scary bit of information. Aluminum adjuvants seem like a quiet killer put there by an evil money-grubbing corporation, or perhaps some nefarious government agency is to blame. The problem with this sort of thing though is that if you’ll notice, the above quoted statement says nothing at all about dosage. How much Aluminum adjuvant did the mice get? What would be the equivalent dosage for humans? Is there a correlation between the rodent reaction and the human reaction at all?
Questions like that matter because questions of dosage are always important. If I stand next to the tailpipe of a car with its engine running for 2 minutes, I’ll be none the worse for wear. If, however I stand next to the tailpipe of a car that’s running for several hours, I’m likely to suffer some serious effects. Many things that are harmful in large doses, are not harmful at all in small doses. This isn’t just science, it’s also common sense.
The anti-vaccination crowd has no interest in making distinctions like that. They use phrases like “foreign substances” in order to scare people. These groups not only use bad science, they use dishonest debate tactics in order to support their bad science.
Another tactic used by people peddling pseudo-science is to take statements out of context.
For example Kirk used this from the WHO’s site: “WHO is working closely with manufacturers to expedite the development of a safe and effective vaccine …”
That reads as though the WHO in cahoots with those evil pharmaceutical companies to rush a vaccine to market, the implication being that because of the potential for profit, the pharmaceutical companies will move quickly without concern for the welfare of those being vaccinated.
It’s just plain conspiratorial nonsense. Do you have any idea the size of the liability lawsuit that would come down on big pharma’s head if this thing were truly unsafe? Don’t you think they at least take that part of the equation into account?
What Kirk didn’t quote is what the WHO actually thinks about the vaccine: “Influenza vaccines are one of the most effective ways to protect people from contracting illness during influenza epidemics and pandemics.
The pandemic influenza is a new virus, and virtually everyone is susceptible to infection from it. These vaccines will boost immunity against the new influenza, and help ensure public health as the pandemic evolves.”
Again, people can do what they want as far as the flu/H1N1 shot. Take it, or don’t take it. I don’t give a rat’s ass either way.
These anti-vaccine scare tactics though, are based entirely on junk science, ad hominem attacks on the “evil” government, and taking legitimate scientific research completely out of context.
As far as the merit of good diet and supplements, go for it. It couldn’t hurt. But why not ask your doctor what he or she thinks about the flu/H1N1 shot before making a judgement based on the half-baked ideas of some kook fringe group.
Hell, don’t take my word for it either. You wouldn’t ask a poet the best way to build a bridge would you? So why would you trust medical advice from anyone other than a person who’s made it his or her life-calling to study the human body and find the best ways to treat and prevent illness?
As I said before though, do whatever the hell you want to do. My family and I will be getting the shot, so even if you get sick I’ll be fine.
“It’s just plain conspiratorial nonsense. Do you have any idea the size of the liability lawsuit that would come down on big pharma’s head if this thing were truly unsafe? Don’t you think they at least take that part of the equation into account?”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31971355/ns/health-swine_flu/
The federal government grants legal immunity to all the flu vaccine manufacturers.
Most of your post is hot air trying to impugn me, but I have been the one to backup my claims. I’ll ask you the same question I asked gb, can you show me a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study proving the efficacy of the flu vaccine?
Kirk –
It’s not a question of googling, providing links, and cutting and pasting one study after another. We could have dueling studies and do that all day.
The bottom line is what do the experts in the field say — whose job is to sort through all the studies, etc.:
What does the The World Health Organization, Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, etc. have to say?
Bottom line: They all support vaccination.
If you don’t trust the vast majority of doctors, governmental organization, and scientist whose job it is to make these determinations, and instead decide to google your way into supporting your own bias, then so be it.
Or maybe you can’t. As far as I am aware such a study does not exist. I thought this was supposed to be about science, evidence, give me links Mr George exclaimed (incidentally that was a bit of a trap as I’ve observed that comments with more than one link require special moderator approval).
But now it’s convenient to just move the goalposts with a blind appeal to authority. I don’t let others do my thinking for me when it comes to my health.
Of course! You only appeal to authority when it agrees with what you have to say, or you imagine it does re: your WHO link.
When said authority doesn’t agree with you, you’ll come off with some ad hominem attack on that authority.
Been fun really, and as I said do what you want to do as far as the vaccine. It’s no skin off my back either way.
Where did I make an ad hominem attack? Show me. When I said that I don’t completely trust every expert and prefer to reach my own conclusions?
Another accusation from you, care to support this one?
I guess I’m willing to move to that goal post because I myself do not have a phd in infectious diseases, and I refuse to be an armchair apologist.
But I have attended dozens of conferences with these people. I know them has conscientious highly intelligent people who have spent decades of their lives studying and researching these issues. Sure, they don’t always agree, but when it come to the bottom line, it is
these same people make up the bodies of the WHO, CDC, AMA, etc. They have determined through their thoughtful analysis of all the data and thousands of studies that is is recommended to get the vaccine.
Yes, I don’t have time, intelligence, education to replicate the thousands of years of their research, I have other things to do. But I’ll take their recommendations over an armchair blogger any day.
Why? Because I’ve met them and respect them. Now exactly what university did you get your Phd from. and what research institute are you affiliated with?
(Now, don’t take that too personally)
gb: How far would you go to support my right to control what goes in my body? Should vaccinations ever be mandatory?
I don’t need a phD to express my opinion because this isn’t anthropology or physics, this is people’s bodies and their lives.
“Where did I make an ad hominem attack?”
“But now it’s convenient to just move the goalposts with a blind appeal to authority. I don’t let others do my thinking for me when it comes to my health.”
That was easy enough I suppose.
Chris-
Then you have a very poor understanding of logical fallacies. I base my reasoning on the facts and evidence, not the names and faces.
Good point Christopher –
In the case of the flu shot, it should be an individual choice (I’ve already gotten both the seasonal flu and H1N1). And there are some legitimate questions out there about he benefits of widespread flu in certain populations.
What’s bothersome is the anti-vaccine movement per se, especially when it comes to more dangerous diseases. No vaccine is 100% effective, but to effectively eradicate diseases such as small pox & polio, a high percentage of the population (up to 90%) needs to be vaccinated to control and effective eradicate the disease. This is called herd immunity. And because no vaccine is not 100% effectively, when others are not vaccinated, it places those who did choose vaccination at a higher risk.
Of the 30 million and growing people who have now been vaccinated against H1N1, there are virtually no adverse events (Gosh, that’s pretty good odds, I’m heading to Vegas!). But place that against the human emotions of fear and distrust, and it’s no contest about what wins out.
One thing I know that is because I have been vaccinated against the flu and N1N1, I’m not only protecting myself, but all those I would come in contact with should I have gotten infected. I feel good about that.
“Of the 30 million and growing people who have now been vaccinated against H1N1, there are virtually no adverse events (Gosh, that’s pretty good odds, I’m heading to Vegas!)”
Oh you with your “logic”. It doesn’t matter how effective the vaccine has been. It has those evil “foreign substances” in it. Haven’t you been paying attention?
“One thing I know that is because I have been vaccinated against the flu and N1N1, I’m not only protecting myself, but all those I would come in contact with should I have gotten infected. I feel good about that.”
That is one of the big two reasons why I got the flu shot and will be getting the H1N1 as soon as I recover from what has turned out to be bronchitis and an ear infection.
Insert shameless plus
(Stay tuned to Miss Mom on Tuesday as I attempt to write under the influence of prescription cough medicine about having to take said cough medicine…)
end shameless plug
There are reasons why people choose or not choose to get vaccinated for the flu, many of which are quite valid, including allergies to the ingredients the vaccines are grown in. I’ve done both, and I’ve both had and dodged that year’s flu. I truthfully prefer the shot, no side effects cept for a small hole in my side that quickly heals.
I chose to get the shot because I work VERY close with people in my line of work and physically touch every client in my chair, plus handle money, AND I know that my immune system is not the best and I wanted to lower my chances of getting sick.
Now if more people would just stay home when they are sick, I’d be at work, because someone wouldn’t have passed on germs to me and I would not be home being sick and realizing that my description of my work environment could mean something other then what it really is….
Just curious and I hope you don’t mind my asking, but how long between when you got the flu shot and you got sick?
a month. Trust me, I got sick because people at work had…
ear infections
mono.
bronchitis
sinus infections
That was just my co-workers.
Plus its November, I have gotten sick right around Thanksgiving every year for decades. I was due. I’ll get sick probably one more time around Valentine’s Day. Yeah, my body schedules these things in advance.
Ahh, sensible Sylvie. Have I ever told you exactly how much I love you?
AWWWWWW thanks.
As a medical professional, I just have to chime in and say that if our immune systems worked so well why would we be so worried about Healthcare? Or epidemics? Germs happen. And they keep happening. Really… the best defense is covering your mouth when you cough and hand hygeine. Every year I’ve gotten the flu shot as some friends giggled at my folly. I haven’t had the flu since I was 5. Purell has been proven 1000x more effective than hand washing. One semester of microbiology will make you think twice about touching doorknobs, tabletops in public places and even the faucets in bathrooms. And…. don’t touch your face unless your hands are CLEAN! OF COURSE immunization should be a personal choice. I personally prefer to acquaint my immune system with newcomers. Immunization… it’s not for everybody!
Yay! an actual expert on the subject, and welcome to the forum by the way.
I learned to cough into my elbow years ago to avoid sending germs from my mouth to my hands. And several of us at work are nearly phobic when it comes to people crossing our breathing area and not taking simple precautions. I wash my hands a lot, for practical purposes and there are hand sanitizers handy everywhere. I wore a mask at the doctor’s office this morning. I don’t see how people can stand those things for more then a few minutes, but at least the one I wore prevented my germs from traveling far.
Of course we forget that we have the option of taking better precautions against infectious diseases. Things such as hand sanitizers are fairly recent invention. Gojo, a company that invented a grease-cutting soap that could be used with or without water. They marketed the first alcohol based hand gel in 1988. We know it as what Dixie mentioned, Purell. The first flu shots were developed by the military during the 1940′s. Technology has developed quickly as have the quality of the vaccinations as researchers worked to improve prevention methods.
Those methods have worked for the most part, but as Dixie can certainly attest, it isn’t a 100% guarantee. Our bodies are complex and unique to each individual. Makes it hard to make one thing work for every single person. We have yet to see another epidemic like the one of 1918 thanks in part to better understanding of influenza and better treatments developed by medical professionals all over the world. I personally am thankful for their hard work and perseverance.
It should be pointed out that the clinics provided by the health department are open only to those people in the CDC recommended group. I was turned away on Wednesday.
I’m sorry but I believe that Kirk has stated some things that are blatantly false.
For example Kirk wrote, “The vaccine manufacturers want to produce as many doses as possible. However it takes too much virus RNA to achieve the desired immune response and so they develop chemical adjuvants that multiply the effects.”
But NONE of the flu vaccines available in the US have adjuvants added. Whether Kirk intended to mislead or did so unintentionally is moot. It shows that one should be suspect of his opinions on the topic.
Some more mythbusting on the anti-vaccine argument can be found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12offit.html
I apologize. You are right, none of the flu vaccines available currently in the US use the major adjuvants as far as I can tell. Some vaccines like hepatitis and HPV do use them.
However, most of the flu vaccines in Europe, Canada, and Australia do use them. The WHO recommends their use, and there is significant international pressure to get them approved in the US. It would not surprise me if they tried to fast-track it using emergency pandemic powers.
I encourage anyone that wants to get the vaccine to read the inserts. There are 6 companies making the vaccine, and the methods differ. All of the multi-dose vials contain thimerosal mercury. If they do not properly shake the vial before administering each dose, you could possibly get an even higher dose of mercury.
Other ingredients I’ve read in the inserts include formaldehyde, MSG, gelatin, polysorbate-80, Triton X-100 (a detergent), and even potassium chloride (the stuff they use in lethal injections). In addition there are proteins and foreign DNA and RNA from the chickens and monkeys they use to make the vaccines.
Read the inserts, know the contraindications and side-effects, and be informed.
The stuff they use in lethal injections–Potassium chloride–is also used as a water softener, and used in bottled water.
The amount of a chemical used is extremely relevant when you’re talking about toxicity levels. As an example, cinnamon can be toxic if you use too much. Watch out for them snickerdoodle cookies.
Triton X-100 is indeed a detergent. It’s used to make cell membranes more permeable so the vaccine is more effective.
Though what you listed were true alternative uses to the chemicals, I think it’s just slightly misleading to use them as scare-words for these ingredients.
There is a difference between digesting something and injecting it.
Right you are!
High concentration Potassium chloride is available in a syringe (that’s for injecting by the way) by Rx to replenish electrolytes.
Still not a scary word.
As for its link to lethal injection, it given in conjunction with 2 other compounds: Sodium thiopental (given first to induce a coma) Pancuronium bromide (non-depolarizing muscle relaxant), and lastly KCl is given to stop the heart. Remember, in *large* doses.
Some folk are so desperate they compare a yearly shot in the dark vaccine to established protection from mumps, measles, and rubella.
Lingering side effects from narcotics, pain, and genital mistrust might explain this.
The problem, Kirk, is that you made a pretty big deal earlier in your comments that you were only referring to the flu vaccine specifically and not vaccines in general. Quoting you,
“The topic is flu vaccine, so I’m not inclined to widen the scope of the debate.”
Yet, you had already widened the scope of the debate by using facts about other vaccines while discussing the flu vaccine.
This, along with other purposefully misleading statements of yours, make your apology unacceptable.
If you choose to not get the vaccine that is your choice. But when you publicly spread misinformation that either directly or indirectly questions the safety of said vaccine and thus attempt to negatively affect the health of other people, you have crossed a line. I find it no less despicable than someone trying to tout the health benefits of smoking cigarettes while denigrating the health experts and their “science.” Luckily, anyone these days extolling smoking would be laughed and shamed. Unfortunately your dangerous fear mongering is still taken seriously.
I made a mistake, you pointed out the facts, I admitted it and apologized. If thats not good enough for you I don’t care.
If it weren’t for people getting educated the squalene would likely already be in our vaccines. The fact remains that the majority of the vaccine in the world contains it, and the WHO and other foreign organizations are putting a lot of effort into forcing us to take it.
And I don’t appreciate you saying I’m being purposefully misleading.
Skunk,
Are you saying that flu vaccine deniers are a menace to society?
I still hope people will be responsible enough to educate themselves as much as possible. We should not place all of our bets on the opinion of a single medical professional. Common folks aren’t so dumb that we can’t read and educate ourselves. I’ve seen a number of out of shape, unhealthy medical professionals who obviously don’t take the professional education they’ve received very seriously. Maybe that’s why some of us choose to question.
Then there is Dr. Oz…I like that dude. He’s healthy and seems to walk the walk. But, I’ve read that while he promotes the vaccine…his kids aren’t getting it. He blames it on his wife and says she made the decision. WHAT?!?! She’s not going to listen to the Oprah-endorsed, medical professional of America…Dr. Oz???
Surely I’m not the only one who thinks that kinda weird.
Anyhoo, it never hurts to ask more questions when it comes to looking out for yourself or those you love.
Dr Oz owns 150,000 stock options on a vaccine technology company.
http://sec.gov/cgi-bin/own-disp?action=getowner&CIK=0001139299&sortid=period-of-report-ASC
And that is a fine example of educating yourself.
So, I should never trust a chubby doctor or a skinny cook?
lol, sorry I couldn’t resist.
“We should not place all of our bets on the opinion of a single medical professional.”
How about 10 medical professionals? 100? 1,000? 10,000?
I’m willing to bet that practically every doctor in the greater Spartanburg area will attest to the safety of the flu/H1N1 shot. And before you start on that nonsense about forming your own opinion, consider whose opinion is more informed. Is it yours which you’ve formed after reading the rantings of a fringe group with not the slightest bit of scientific backing for their claims, or is it the opinion of practically all medical professionals worldwide. As I wrote earlier about this whole thing, information is important, but judging the validity of the source of that information is even more important.
One of the biggest arguments coming from the anti-vaccination crowd is that the official groups can’t be trusted because they’ve been tainted by evil big pharma and their dirty money. They’re working under the assumption that every doctor with the CDC and the WHO operates in a world without ethical concerns, as though these doctors, because of their official position and money are incapable of considering patient safety at all.
What a load of garbage that is! I’ll be the last to say that all doctors are saints, but to pretend that the entire medical profession is nothing but an amoral, ethically-challenged horde corrupted by big pharma money is just…well…nuts!
“I’ve seen a number of out of shape, unhealthy medical professionals who obviously don’t take the professional education they’ve received very seriously.”
I think this is a great way to test whether or not you should take someone seriously. After all, if a doctor is battling a weight problem there’s no way he or she could know anything at all about medicine.
I like this idea so much, I intend to use it for other things as well.
From now on, I refuse to accept information on environmental issues from anyone whose home is larger than 2,000 square feet, and who doesn’t either drive a hybrid or ride a bicycle to a job that is no more than 10 miles from his or her home. After all, that person must not take his or her environmentalism very seriously if he or she can’t live the same conviction.
I will also not accept any ideas on job creation from anyone who isn’t unemployed, or ideas on eliminating poverty from anyone who isn’t poor, or ideas on…I’ll keep working because there’s a lot of potential for this idea.
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.”–Ralph Waldo Emerson
Emerson was COMPLETELY full of crap!
Chris,
you do what you need to do. THAT is exactly the point. If you’ve had the vaccine and are confident in it…then you should be okay. If Kyle doesn’t want it…it is OKAY. He will get sick. NOT YOU. You can’t make him get it just because you think it is the right thing to do. And he is not a NUT just because he doesn’t have it.
All we can do is do what we can. I’m no health nut. I’m overweight. I drink. I eat Sugar & Spice when I can. And I need to exercise a helluva lot more than I do. No one shot is going to fix all that ails me. I have ALOT of other weak areas that I need to be working on.
Our immune systems will be more prepared to fight if we take proactive measures like washing our hands, maintaining a healthy weight and hygenine routine, eating fruits and veggies and the like. I think that was Kyle’s original point. Both Kyle and myself have said we’re not ‘anti-vaccination’ but you continue to label us ‘fringe’ because we dare question.
I never said one shouldn’t trust the medical community but I do believe each individual has a personal responsiblity to themselves to also seek answers.
As for the personal jabs, you shouldn’t just listen to me Chris. God, I hope you don’t. I’m a blogger. I do preach on doing what you can to help the environment. I do what I can. I parked my SUV a year ago, tuned up my mom’s 1999 Sentra and started driving it to my job which is 30 miles one way. Not perfect but better. Yes, I could do more but unfortunately I can’t afford a hybrid. Does that make me a hyprocrite? Maybe.
But, I don’t really see that as the same as say, Dr. Oz selling you a vaccine he is proffing from yet won’t give his own kids. Dr. Oz CAN give his kids the vaccine if he wants to…I can’t just go out and buy a hybrid. I don’t profit from my advice. I don’t tell you to do what I say. I share my experience of trying to do what I can. I’m not perfect.
Hence the reason I’m not taking a stance for or against this vaccine because I don’t KNOW. Neither do you. Stop acting like you do.
As I said earlier, I don’t care if you or Kirk get the vaccine or not.
What I do care about is people spreading unfounded accusations that fly in the face of what practically the entire medical community has to say on the matter.
You’re correct that I don’t know enough to say one way or another, but it’s not my education and research we’re talking about here.
You want to make this about my opinion versus yours or Kirk’s, but it’s not. It’s about the research and educated opinion of the overwhelming majority of the medical profession versus an anti-vaccination group with an agenda but no hard science to back up their claims. Both you and Kirk seem to want to place the two on equal footing, but that’s pretty dishonest and I think both of you actually know better.
I don’t really get the Dr. Oz crack. Maybe I’m a bit outside the loop, but I had to look that guy up to even know who the hell he was. I couldn’t care less where one doctor stands on the vaccine. I care where the medical COMMUNITY stands, and I think the evidence on that one is pretty clear.
I’m also not quite sure where you’re getting the idea that I said something personal about you. I used the environmental example because it’s the political issue that people use most often when calling someone out for hypocrisy. Remember the controversy over the size of Al Gore’s house? That’s the sort of thing that always strikes me as Emerson’s “foolish consistency”. If anything, my argument was AGAINST the idea of holding people to unfair standards of consistency.
I chose to make that point by mocking your line about out of shape doctors. To me, that was pretty obviously a stupid thing to say, and I treated it as such.
I know you’re pretty vocal on the environmental front here in Spartanburg, but I don’t know enough about your life to say one way or another whether you’re a hypocrite or not. Frankly, I don’t care either.
I’m not calling you paranoid, and if you’ll notice I did come up with two other examples of the same sort of nonsense, but as a blogger and veteran of more than your share of online political battles I’d expect you to know that not everything posted TO you is necessarily ABOUT you.
It’s been fun guys, but I think this one’s run its course.
“I’m willing to bet that practically every doctor in the greater Spartanburg area will attest to the safety of the flu/H1N1 shot.”
1. I’ve seen a few doctors in Spartanburg, of the few that I have seen maybe one of them was worth of shit. It seems they’re always quick to throw narcotics at you. So, the grand opinions of those people hold little water for me.
2. Just Google, ‘Doctors against h1n1 vaccine’. There are plenty of doctors that stand adamantly against the vaccine. Hmm, kind of like the strong numbers of scientists that suggest that your party’s global warming is a crock. Nice try but I’m willing to bet that it’s 50/50 and instead of quoting Emerson, I’m going to quote Fleetwood Mac, “You can go your own way.”
Do what you want. Vaccine or not you have no social obligations.
Does the lack of adjuvant mean that you are now going to take the vaccine?
If not, then why are you concerned if it contains it or not?
If vaccine makers included the adjuvant would there be more vaccine available to those of us who would like to take it and are not concerned about the presence of the adjuvant?
There are 13000+ hits from a Google scholars search on double blind random placebo tests involving flu vaccines. Belshe, et al. would be a good place to start. The H1N1 vaccine is made just like other flu vaccines.
If I went into a discussion on the healthy benefits of unfiltered apple cider vinegar and stated “many people who take real ACV get really, really sick” the implication I am making is that the cider caused the sickness, even if that is not what I directly say. You did the same thing when you wrote that “many people who get the flu shot get flu like symptoms.” While technically not saying that the flu shot may cause the flu, that is the clear implication; without the implication its a meaningless statement.
You claim that there is some evidence that aspirin increased the mortality rate of the 1918 flu; yet this is a hypothesis that was just proposed in the last month! There is no evidence collected to support this educated guess. And it certainly wouldn’t explain the high mortality rate in a place like Western Samoa, while the quarantined American Samoa next door remained unscathed. So why make a (false) statement that’s only purpose is to diminish the severity of a flu outbreak?
I think Katie’s reply to your ingredient list is spot on. It should also be pointed out that if you get the flu, then foreign genetic material (dna/rna) is entering your system. Since the vaccine is giving you a little bit of the virus of course its going to contain foreign genetic material. that’s the point.
camelmike, I am saying that flu vaccine deniers who try to influence public opinion and thus public policy are very much a menace to society. they can do to their bodies what they want, but when they try to keep me from keeping my body healthy they are crossing the line.
Flues hit hardest after December. Already, thousand of people have DIED from the H1N1 virus.
Dr. Oz owns stock in a company that develops vaccines for small pox and other diseases that could be used in bio-terror attacks. They do no work on the flu vaccine.
Alexander Pope wrote (and nothing could be more appropriate for Kirk or anybody on here inclined to believe him), “A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.”
When it comes to health, a person would do well to trust those who drank deep (and have the credentials to show it) and ignore those who just took a sip.
Website warning against H1N1 vaccine: http://tinyurl.com/yhh8ufc :
“Science dictates that only a randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled study can generate unbiased results in any clinical trial. In the history of vaccine development, no such study has ever been performed. It is only unscientific opinions and pharmaceutical propaganda which have propelled the mythological validity, safety and effectiveness of vaccines.”
“…Every Physician, Nurse or medical personnel who administers the H1N1 vaccine (or any vaccine) should be asking themselves why they are injecting the following ingredients into patients that have been scientifically proven to cause immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity, sterility and cancer.”
And then it lists the ingredients in various available H1N1 vaccines.
It’s 226 references? From novaccine.com.
I’d say Chris had a relevant point earlier when he was asking whether or not Kirk was entirely anti-vaccine. Whether Kirk is or not, his information is obviously linked to (literally) and perpetuated by the anti-vaccine crowd, which indicates some bias.
Just an observation.
I’ve never heard of that website and the ingredients I was looking at I got directly from the inserts. I don’t have an opinion on vaccines in general. Like I said I would look at each shot individually. I’m not convinced the flu shot in particular is effective.
However, judging by your implications, you *do* seem to be convinced that the flu shot is hazardous.
With nothing short of anti-vaccine jargon. That, I am sure, is not available in the vaccine leaflets.
I’m not convinced it’s always hazardous, but I’m also not convinced it is completely safe. If I got rheumatoid arthritis or one of the other thousands of autoimmune disorders the best I would get out of them would be ‘oops’.
It’s not worth my potential longterm health to artificially tweak my immune system for one particular pathogen, which may or may not prevent me from getting sick anyway.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1/
Here is an article that came out this month I encourage everyone to read. Highlights include the statistical methods used to calculate morbidity of the flu; why those numbers are suspect; how properly controlled studies are considered unethical; why it may be that the vaccine is least effective in those that need it most.
These are quotes I’m pasting directly from flu vaccine inserts:
“No controlled clinical studies demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with AFLURIA have been performed.”
“Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN. It is also not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.”
“Safety and effectiveness of FLULAVAL in pediatric patients have not been established.”
“It is not known whether FLUVIRIN® is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when FLUVIRIN® is administered to a nursing woman.”
“Neither Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine nor AFLURIA has been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential or for impairment of fertility.”
Flu-like symptoms are a very common side-effect of the flu shot. If you have anything to show that apple cider vinegar causes flu-like symptoms I would be very interested to see that.
There are many pathogens that make us sick. The flu virus is just one of them. Furthermore there are multiple flu viruses and which ones they put in the vaccines each year is pretty much a shot in the dark (which is why they missed the ‘swine’ flu in the regular vaccine and had to make another) –also want to point out here that there have also been indications the regular flu shot doubles your chance of catching the swine flu– .
I prefer to work to keep my immune system healthy against anything that could affect me, and not try to augment it for one particular virus.
Kirk,
Thanks for pointing to the Atlantic article.
What I found lacking there and here, amongst the proponents of shot in the dark therapy was the mention of fear factor.
Those who have a continuous and even predictable (albeit self predicted) propensity towards maladies of all sorts and the recent victims of illness share a common desire to “help” or “spread awareness”.
Like those that fret about “texting while driving” and ignore the decreasing numbers of accidents nationwide, we can see those folk ripped by fear of sickness who want to make sure “others do not suffer”.
Misguided altruism? Ignorance of exploitation? Does it really matter?
Year after year we see the same scenario: shortages, long lines, and plenty of press coverage.
Yet, the score card for flu deaths is scribbled, smeared, and rumpled. It starts with 1213 deaths of the “pig,bird,gopher” flu, and later we never see the final total.
The commonly accepted figure is “about 36,000″ deaths per year.
There is no adjustment for shortages, miscalculations, or even a abnormally cold winter.
My view is that fear allows this huge medical experiment to continue year after year.
The odd thing is, we never hear proponents proclaim victory over the centuries old flu. In fact, towards the end of the season we hear nothing at all.
I don’t deny the existence of influenza but I do question the need for yearly hysteria and a sheep like line up for shots.
If the same effort were put forth to eliminate some common venereal diseases I suggest the results would be striking, and not dubious.